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Learn More - opens in a new window or tab Any international shipping is paid in part to Pitney Bowes Inc. Learn More - opens in a new window or tab. Related sponsored items Feedback on our suggestions - Related sponsored items. Report item - opens in a new window or tab. Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing. Item specifics Condition: New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item including handmade items. See the seller's listing for full details. See all condition definitions - opens in a new window or tab Hello LJC, I wanted to let you know that your web site is critical in identifying the evolution of Blue Note as well as other labels.
Thank you. I am assuming that it may have been a close to the end pressing at Plastylite that got the new generic NY USA Label on it during the transfer of ownership in ? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Dave I can supply photos if you request. Your will bear all the hallmarks of original mastering but the NY label identifies it as a later pressing sometime between Autumn and Spring The thing that will get you closer to the date of manufacture is the detail of the inner sleeve, if present.
There are nine unique designs, which changed two or three times a year, that will tell you roughly when it was bagged at Plastylite. Thank you for the clarity. Unfortunately the original sleeve appears to be gone. Its a plain white sleeve. Does that predate the first run of listed on this page? The first appearance of the 47W63 New York 23 label wasreleased in March Your copy of must date from some time after March How much later is impossible to say, since labels were a lagging indicator of provenance — it was practice hold surplus printed labels in stock for further pressings.
There may be other indicators such as cover detail that may date it more precisely. Printed spines appears on titles issued after Aprilso it is a second cover probably from around or shortly after then. Hello, thanks so much for this amazing resource! NY address label begins to appear late Copies of are seen with mixed 47W63 and NY labels, then NY both sides, pressed some time after The cover address 43W61 was in use between early and latewhich would be consistent with a pressing, which is my guess.
But if you look at the specific post about that label further down the page you state it was first used in I assume its the cheat sheet that is incorrect here. Greetings, I stumbled across this amazing resource while trying to research a record for a friend. I am struggling to determine the pressing of the record because it is still sealed and the owner does not want to open it for fear of losing value.
I understand that Blue Note used older covers on re-presses making it impossible to date on covers alone. The record appears to be an original Lee Morgan Vol. Any leads on this would be so helpful. Thank you for such an incredible amount of info! Pictures of the front and back would be very helpful. Disregard my previous post. I thought liberty labels only started in ? Reissues from the Blue Note back catalogue pre are generally without Van Gelder stamp, because they were remastered from copy tape sent to Research Craft.
There are a handful where original metal was sent but these are very much the exception. These are not hard and fast rules, as there are occasional title-specific anomalies, but most follow the above pattern. Label is inc. You mean an NY label? If NY and all the other indications of the original metal, that is a second pressing dated somewhere between and DuringDG pressing dies at Plastylite were slowly replaced, and more or less randomly we saw pressings with and without DG, or DG on one side only.
A grooveless pressing of can only be manufactured in or after when those dies first came into use, which is a couple of years after the first release of Thank you for the answer!
Yesthe label adress is: Blue Note Records inc, 47 west 63 rd nyc, there is only dg on side 1! Do you think that there is a huge difference from an audiophile point of view? Compared to a first press. So it has the original 47W63rd labels, and the only difference from the original DG is that it is DG side 1 only.
That tells me two things. It is a repressing from or later, and that they were still using up the stock of old labels. Sonically, it will sound no different from the full DG edition, that is, should sound fantastic. The Fred Cohen official view is that first edition is DGx2. Personally I am not so fastidious. However some collectors are. Thank you very much for these profound informations! Hello LJC, one last question: I have read that the weight of the original record should be ca gramms.
Mine has definitely less weight! Is this a matter? Thank you Wolfgang. Only the Lexington labels from around came in at such a heavy weight as over grams. It is only a rough indicator, as there is a certain amount of normal variation around those averages, and the very occasional extreme outlier.
I would expect somewhere between and grams for a Blue Note pressed in around Probably the exception that confirms the rule though. Sure, there are always some outliers. Heaviest gm, lightest gm, but these are real anomalies. I am wondering if there is a list of the titles that were prepared for release prior to th sale of blue note but not released until the Liberty days. There are around forty Blue Note titles in the Blue Note catalog, examples are,and many others approaching the cut-off, which had been prepared for release prior to the sale of Blue Note, but were pressed subsequent to the company sale to Liberty.
The original first pressing is without ear. The year shown in brackets below is the year of recording. Just to clarify. When you write they were prepared for release before the sale. That means first pressings of all these titles have the NY label but no P. Always happy to be corrected. Aarons list and mine are identical, I merely added a further 20 titles above up towhich was the final end point of titles assigned catalogue numbers by Blue Note prior to the sale to Liberty. As the good doctor has listed, there are a number of titles for which no NY labels had ever been printed, hence the first press has Division of Liberty labels.
The rest have NY labels, but of course pressed for Liberty with no Plastylite ear. I appreciate buyers sellers set great store by the presence of an NY label, but they are all simply pressings for Liberty carried out by All-Disc, Roselle, NJ starting in the latter part ofwhether with a previously printed NY label or a new Division of Liberty label. I do especially appreciate the quality of your cover reproductions if I can find a londonjazzcollector jpeg for my mp3 library I am very happy indeed.
I only wish you would give the Japanese a little more credit for their labours than just recommending their pressings because they are very well taken care of in the 2nd hand market very true of course.
The folks here kept the bobbing Blue Note boat pretty much afloat I think during the troubled times. Also technology advances. The softer sound of the Toshibas might Album) be intentional. Record player speakers in the 50s were sort of limited in dynamic range. I do wholeheartedly agree though, that the original Blue Notes have a lot more punch … but then again — I am marked for extinction myself.
Who knows. Anyway — many thanks again and keep on posting Sincerely Joerg. Just checked few records I have the Night at the Village Vanguard from Sonny Rollins Everything is exactly as the original mono first press except for the label on side one which shows the Inc and R supposed to be on the second press from Could you help me clarified which issue it is?
Thanx Lionel. I am not a specialist, but I would have thought you have a solid 2nd issue. Still partly the original label on one side and the new label at the other. What inner sleeve for this one? Havent seen in your listings those lasbels with a BST- Number. Can you pl. Thanks Willie. The blue label white note is a reissue by United Artists of a title, hence the use of the original catalogue number BST. Fantastic article. Really very informative. What led me here was a recent purchase of The 3 Sounds Vibration album.
The copy I purchased was very difficult to identify until I cam upon your article. You see, the album falls into the transition time between the original company and the purchase by Liberty inyou mention above that the last New York and Plastylite pressings ended with The album jacket has Libert Records markings so all of this makes me believe that this album, One Night On Tulane - Blue States - The Soundings (Vinyl,May be the last NYC Plastylite pressing before Liberty moved all the production to NJ and other locations.
The sound is amazing which leads me to believe it is a pre-Liberty pressing. Would love feedback, too. Could you kindly send some pictures to LondonJazzCollector outlook. Can this be confirmed visually? So this copy does not seem to be made in NY. Sorry for this confusion. But the labels are older labels even though the cover is clearly printed after Liberty purchased the label.
The first cover manufactured with 43W61 address appears onreleased in February It continued to be the address on the back cover for the following six years until mid The cover you have could have been manufactured any time in that period.
There is no finer granularity with dating covers, but it confirms your copy of Vol 2 was probably manufactured at least afterruling out mixing up covers. The presence of a Lexington label simply means Plastylite were still using up old stock labels from inventory at that time.
I have a Liberty manufactured in with a Lexington label. The determinant of date is the most modern element in manufacture. Also, the inner sleeve is missing from my copy. Do you have any information and photos on what was used at that time? The link with inner sleeves is usually the pressing plant, Plastylite, because they bag the freshly pressed records. Not sure it would tell us anything new if we did.
Prior to the 36xcorporate inner sleeves, Blue Note were packed in a plain white inner sleeve, which is what I would expect yours to have had. I have yet to see one. Groove-width is entirely outside my field of knowledge. Maybe someone else, from the audio-engineering side knows? I am a pro musician and looking for records that give me the feeling that the musicians are playing in my listening room. The piano sounds the worst. ERLP After the last note a terrible sound is coming out of the speakers.
My digital playback of a Weiss dac is average far better. Any help is welcome. Regards Wil. Most modern reissues are mostly a disappointment once you are accustomed to what vintage pressings — 70 sound like. The downside of vintage is that price and availability are in the realm of antiques, not mass-market consumer products.
Hi Ed, thanks for kind words, instant response. Hello, Great site. I have a lot of reading to do! I figured I throw something your way to look at. I have some pictures that I will send to your email noted above. So, there you go! They are both modern releases modern in anyway from the band Medeski Martin and Wood.
They share almost everything in common with the Connoisseur labels. They are definitely made in the USA. And one has the following run out:. Very informative. I have newly discovered Blue Note and I am trying to differentiate between Microgroove and Stereo on the label and I am not finding a super clear answer. Is Microgroove referring to Mono or the actual groove imprint?
The shellac disc had a wide groove, and fast rotation, which packed all of five minutes per side. Incredible info on this site! Quick question: Is there any way to find out the number of copies of an album were pressed upon release of a given album or series and when the second pressing occurred? Blue Note sales figures were a closely guarded secret, much wanted, never disclosed publicly, but there are a few sources which allow us piece together some rough orders of magnitude.
There would be an initial pressing run for the first release. If a record sold well there would be a second pressing, which might be a week later, or several years later, and some titles enjoyed only a single pressing in the Blue Note years. By the mids record sales had grown and the initial pressing run of a typical Blue Note new release was likely around 4, My other benchmark is Mosaic box-sets, whose limited editions ran typically between 3, and 7, units, going OOP within a couple of years.
You get a sense that the market for a jazz titles in first and subsequent pressings total was in the low tens of thousands. Total sales of Sidewinder over its first three or more months uniquely crossed into six figures. I can upload from there LJC. Any problems? I can send you more information about this numbering, when being at home later. Cheers Mladen. The vinyl weighs approx. The label has a deep groove on both sides. Any information on the issue date etc of the recording would be gratefully appreciated.
Congratulations on the great site. If you have the original inner sleeve could help narrow the window. Thank you Aaron for that info. It shows 36 Blue Note covers in black and white on both sides. Any reason why there are different labels on the two sides? Printed batches of Blue Note labels were held in stock for use for further repressings.
The printed label was a consumable inventory stock item. Much to the chagrin of collectors in search of certainty, you have to see the label as only loosely connected with the date of manufacture. Many thanks for all the info. Can I assume with a fair degree of certainty that despite the labels, my copy dates from — ? NY label, with ear in the run out? Then definitely The exact detail of the inner sleeve will date it more precisely within that period.
The promotional inner sleeve has 9 distinct variations. Since the record would have been bagged immediately after manufacture, and bagged in whatever was the current inner sleeve, that inner sleeve is a better means of dating manufacture than all the stuff about labels.
The only flaw is that people sometimes mixed up inner sleeves after play. Beyond that, used the inner sleeve to date it. Many thanks LJC. Brilliant just the information I was after. Many thanks for all your help and keep up the good work with such a brilliant site.
I have acquired similar but differt labels of several BN reprintings on the Sunset Liberty label as well as Pacific Jazz Liberty circa With a Van Gelder Stamp by the Way. All 3, even the budget Sunset pressings of which I have several, are good pressings and seem equal, in quality to the. Can I send you Photographs? Best regards. Updated, cheers. In the case of mixed labels e. Prompted by your question I have rewritten the paragraphs about mixed NY23 and W63rd labels, above Section 2, hopefully with greater clarity, though I am not sure I can answer your specific question.
The missing piece of information, perhaps someone knows, is the capacity of the label hopper of a Plastylite press. If the first pressing run was spread over three days, the start and finish of the run could be just the difference between Monday and Wednesday. Spain has form on Blue Note reissues. I have come across a good number of Fresh Sounds Productions reissues recently Barcelona based, I believe. No idea what their credentials are, seems unlikely they would have access to original tapes, so I put them in the Grey Reissues box, avoid.
If anyone has personal experience with them, perhaps they would like to share an opinion. Hi LJC, Firstly, thank you for such an educational site. As a newbie to jazz, you site has been extremely helpful and very informative.
Popsike has one listed with the labels reversed, i. I am not a Blue Note specialist, far from that, but the first question to be answered is whether you have the first cover or the later one. I bet that yours is the greenish one with the two stylized birds. That is the first cover design. I suppose it is not a frame cover, which makes it a second edition. This would correspond with the adresses you give. LP for the reply… The cover of this album is the pink and white one.
Art Blakey is written in white and the title in a yellow. From what you have written, is it possible that this cover is the incorrect one for the album? It was common practice to use up old stock of printed labels from inventory before using freshly printed stocks. Eking out old stock labels was often done by mixing side one or side two with the more recently printed labels, so mismatched labels are a quite common occurrence with vintage Blue Note.
Why not use up both old A and old B labels together? Reissue is a better description of re-release by new owners of the catalogue, or overseas licensed issues, which usually involved re-mastering from copy tape and broke the lineage with the original Van Gelder master.
I guess people like to use whichever term best suits their purpose. It also has an etched BN-LP. I was quoting the seller. However, taking all this into account and what was written earlier, I must suspect that the album is a reissue. Like LJC said, they may have grabbed in their label box and put on whatever they found. I have had this one with just NYC labels, no adresses.
It is blue note — hank mobley sextet featuring donald byrd and lee morgan. The label is consistent with a or release although supposedly it came out in 58? But the etching is a problem? I have pictures if you are curious. Any assistance would be appreciated. I sent pics to LJC. I can send to you as well if I have a contact method, or maybe LJC can forward them? Their presence is not definitive of original status, it is the ear, which you say is absent.
The 1st edition of is Lexington, and deep groove, released January A 2nd issue on early 47 W63rd label, might possibly also be deep groove. Your mystery record is deep groove or not? Around the time was first released, original Blue notes weigh typically — grams, with the odd outlier, up to By Liberty some old stock labels and cover without ear, typically weigh grams, none over grams.
The size of vinyl biscuit and weight reduced over the years, and can help narrow down the likely year of manufacture. I cannot weigh it simply because I do not have a kitchen scale — although I could very much use one for other things, so need one soon lol. Basically, without an ear OR the groove, I am giving up on it being an original pressing lol. Hi, got the photos Justin, first impressions confirmed.
No ear and not deep groove, it is a Liberty reissue from. It is manufactured with original RVG stampers, using old stock labels cannibalised from a second press around 47W63rd labels no inc or R both sides but the cover is Blue Note Records Inc, hence cover manufactured somewhere between end to It is very cute and quite desirable because of its metal heritage and vintage features, but not an original pressing Lexington nor indeed a Blue Note repress 47W63rd but a Liberty manufactured reissue, my guess Cool, thank you.
One final question, then — do you happen to know, or have an opinion, on a general ballpark value range for this? Even though it is a mid-period reissue it is still nevertheless quite rare, and rare is what drives the price. An open auction on Ebay is the only way to realise its true worth, the whole world can have a shot at it. And I appreciate all your help, certainly! There are a handful of variations of this title all with original Van Gelder mastering.
If interested in selling and in good shape please let me know, thanks. Hi there! There is obviously the P symbol in the trail off, too. What do you think about that? Which kind of pressing is it? Is it a 1st pressing with labels and cover used 3 years later? How is it possible? Many thanks for your attention.
Not strange at all, Blue Note used metal stampers from the original lacquers for years. As opposed to a recording that is re-mastered from the original tapes, or more likely re-mastered from an unknown xth generation copy tape, for reissue. Everything is from the original master tapes, including i-tunes downloads. After digital conversion, limiting, whatever.
Remember all that Dolby stuff? Chop off the top end and no tape hiss, or music come to that. Nowadays they think the market desires more bass, so it sounds better through earphones. The original is as was intended, which will do for me. Repress is doubly good, as usually same sound with years less wear and tear. I have the Thelonious Monk The complete Genius two lp reissue set released in All his Blue Note recordings.
Would you happen to know who did the mastering for this reissue? It sound very good to me. Thank you for a superb and informative site! Lexington on cover, cvr frame K. Thanks for any possible answer, Nicholas. So from Mode for Joe on Album) ear was no longer present. The first pressings of the following titles do not have ears because they were released sometimes much later than planned: — Free Form — Donald Byrd; — Extension — George Braith; — Indestructible — Art Blakey; — Blue Sprits — Freddie Hubbard; — Andrew!
Hi Seth, that list is correct, and twenty titles that followed, between andare similarly on Blue Note NY labels, but without the ear. They were all Van Gelder recordings, and Van Gelder mastered. Thank you for the extra information. I have been wondering about some of my Blue Notes that lack ears. I saw them as a way to pay less for the Blue Note sound. For a long time, I wondered if some of the ear markings were rubbed off over time or just stamped too lightly.
I had to come to terms with the fact that even if I had enough money for a desirable Blue Note title, I would rather spend it on upgrading my equipment. Darn right! Well said all around, and I cannot speak highly enough of Liberty-era pressings, I continue to have great success with them! My 47W63, R has an ear on one side only. The seller had not mentioned it, so I was in the position to negotiate a substantial rebate.
It is without surprise that the sound quality is excellent, either side. How often do misprints come up? Hi Andy. Sorry if this has already been discussed. Hi LJC, thanks for such a wondeful guide which made me started collecting original bluenote records.
The question is it had many marks and scratches. I rated it as G and VG on two sides. Should I buy it as my first original bluenote record? This is details but the label is different from the one you are showing for the LT serie. The music is very out but also excellent.
The Enja number isin stereo, recorded in It looks like the cover has a sheet that was glued on. The record has a white label. I bought it on a whim because I liked the personnel. The compositions are all superb, in my humble opinion. Thanks LJC- your invaluable research just saved me from buying an inferior pressing of an Art Blakey set. Dear dottore, thank you very much!
All the lower number titles I just Popsiked like, and are all 47 West 63rd originals. What I think happened is that a number of Horace recordings were allocated catalogue numbers. Other titles came up and got the later address, this for some reason was set up with the earlier address, just out of sync. I class this alike other mysteries: we can guess, but we will never know. Hi there thanks for all your time and effort, this blog is excellent.
The pressings of at least the one I have are very good when compared to DMM or Capitols much more dynamic with quiet surfaces sleeve quality is also OK. Thanks again. Great and fantastic job,LJC! Very useful, teaching and informative way of approaching to this label and a good help for japanese vinyl lovers like me. I own many japanese reissues in fact I love them because all the things written here, especially their copies are found easily in NM to M conditionby King and Toshiba-EMI. I had heard that some pressings sound better than others, but I never did any test.
Is it something natural? Of course, the records are in MINT condition. Assuming this issue is isolated to certain records and not your equipment at faultit sometimes happens that a record may look mint but have been damaged at some point by play with a faulty stylus. King were made betweenwhich still allows a number of decades where tracking weights were heavier, styluses sometimes went unchanged, or were damaged. I know the studio recording was good as I have another copy, which is fine.
The same owner may have damaged a number of records in his collection, coming from the same source. The other thought is that RVG did have a rare bad day and pushed the needle too far into the red on a particular recording, or the remastering engineer in Japan was having a bad day, but not very likely.
I had similar experiences with Toshiba pressings. In the first instance, the record did not have the clarity of my other Toshibas.
For example, a drum roll would sound fuzzy and indistinct, not unlike the sound of clipping. When I had a similar experience with another Toshiba, I was perplexed. I have many that sound excellent, and I rarely play anything loud.
I did notice, however, that the Toshibas with poor sound quality were pressed after I have since been staying away from the later Toshibas. While this phenomenon is more often found in digital media, I imagine that a record, engineered with digital equipment, can also suffer from the same defect. I do have a vague memory of reading something about avoiding 90s Toshiba records, but my memory, which has always been my weak point, has not been getting better with age.
There is definitely a cut-off point with Toshiba in the late eighties, after which pressings begin to lose their vintage qualities. I suspect that like everywhere else, digital processing started to contaminate their output. However they are still producing records today off the back of their previous reputation. You need to be quite careful when a Toshiba was manufactured.
I have around fifty Toshiba pressings. Based on these, the issues between and 85 are in many cases top notch, those between are variable, and those after are to be avoided. Did you ever compare your Toshiba pressings with other versions of the same music, including CD? I know it sounds ridiculously self-evident, but it would be the only way to assess the sound quality of a particular pressing.
Thanks for your replies. I suspect that some of my vinyls could have damaged grooves in parts. I could have lived worse without knowing Jazz. And without Madonna or Lady Gaga. Very interesting and useful information…has anyone had a chance to listen to the new 75th anniversary pressings?
How to they compare in sound and quality? Hi, we are still waiting for a definitive response from purchasers, which I will not be one of. Opinions are beginning to emerge elsewhere. More here on this:. This is fascinating stuff! It depends on the title and the sales volume of its original pressing, and we know more about the fate of Malaysia Airlines flight MH than we do about that.
The provenance of the metalwork seems more important than All Disc Roselle pressing for Liberty, which was generally fine. Liberty seems hit and miss to me but so far more of a hit. You just take it in your stride. Andy, the February sessions were not recorded in stereo — so, yes, what you have is a rechanneled version. If what you want is sound quality, then the Mosaic set is the one to go for. LJC, so by virtue of these being early Liberty pressings using up old stock NY labelsthey should still be of pretty high sound quality, even if not Plastylite pressings right?
Earless NY and early Division of Liberty are one and the same thing. Mostly, Van Gelder recording and mastering, and All Disc pressing. Sonically equal, allowing for individual variation within any particular pressing run- first to last off the stamper. More than a few are not Van Gelder and many are pressed by a range of other plants, operating under the economic pressures of the industry. Variable experiences from one title to another.
Pragmatically, there are a range of alternatives to first original pressings which are more affordable and available, and offer a terrific listening experience. I am categorically not talking modern gram reissues. If you are selective, there are some near-first that are easily good enough. Given it is impossible to get those coveted First Pressings nowadays because of less well-informed but more-wealthy collectors, this is indeed very good news. Great record,recorded October 11, Virtually every title from and up, and quite a few before, are earless and blessed with NY labels.
The answer lies in the sequence of printing the labels and which plant they were then supplied to for the actual pressing. They must have had artwork all set up for printing Blue Note labels, and carried on as before until Liberty got their act together.
That is very unusual, the mixing NY and Division of Liberty, but an ear? That is the triumph of hope over experience. Nevertheless, should sound great. If the stampers for these reissues were made from old mothers, that would make sense. But if they had the master metal and could make a new mother, I would think they would sound pretty good.
But if we take into account how little everyone cared about fidelity in the 70s in comparison to the 50s and 60s, they probably just used worn mothers to make these stampers. Always disappointing, as they are readily available. Have sold them all. My French copy of BLP pm Art Blakey — A night at birdland has a similar label to the french one above, but sports the italicized microgroove instead of the bold stereo.
It is a reedition. Although I find the popular opinion to be that Hackensack recordings are preferred to those done at Englewood I personally have no preferenceat the very least a line might be drawn between titles that were recorded at the two locations.
At the time it was my honest take, based on my experience at the time. With several more years experience of bigger selection of Blue Notes and other records under my belt, on a much improved hifi system compared with when I first wrote it, I think I would write it differently. I am reminded that all opinion, however honestly formed, is based only on what we know at the time. There are several releases where I have the benefit of both Plastylite and non-Plastylite copies to compare having sought out a pre-Liberty copy after owning a UA or Liberty era pressing and many of them sound just a good as their NYC label counterpart specifically referring to 60s stereo releases.
However, there are plenty of well-pressed late 60s and 70s Blue Notes free from any kind of defect or significant manufacturing degradation which impact sound quality.
In the end, good pressing simply comes down to good quality control which Plastylite certainly had no monopoly on. For me, the critical aspect of any LP, beyond the sleeve, the label, deep groove, etc. In my mind the original mastering is what unwittingly fuels collectors obsessions with all of these other details labels, sleeves, etc.
Perhaps someone who understands more about the LP manufacturing process, such as Dean R. As far as solid blue label-era Blue Note records, I am convinced that new mothers were at least occasionally made from the original matrixes even in the 70s. If new mothers were in fact created, there was essentially a fresh sequence of stampers introduced long after the original release. I have several mint condition 70s pressings that sound great except for these very brief defects. I also have other LPs pressed which are pressed from the same master and have this same type of defect in the same exact spot.
In summary, while I agree the safest bet for top sound quality is a Plastylite pressing, I think a high quality post-Liberty pressing made from the original master can sound just as good. I know that some of those UA pressings did use Van Gelder laquers though so they most definitely are collectible! In the instance that two pressings of the same title were both mastered from the original master tape, there are a number of things related to the mastering process that could impact two different pressings of a title besides the pressing plant.
For each lacquer, master disks would be made, each master would then make a handful of mothers, then each mother would make several stampers. If you get a fresh stamper, the high frequencies will be cut tighter and cleaner and will last longer. If you get a dull stamper, the highs will already be a bit worn and groove wear will set in more quickly.
This is why it makes no sense for someone to want a more original pressing simply because they think the metal used for the pressing is dogmatically fresher. Who knows if the metal would have been inherited by UA from Plastylite, or if UA would have created a fresh master from a lacquer already used by Plastylite, or maybe they used a fresh Van Gelder lacquer that Plastylite never used.
The proof would be in the dead wax of the Van Gelder UAs. But the bottom line is that the whole thing is such a crap shoot regarding how used the lacquer, master, mother, and stamper are for any given copy, the only way to judge fidelity is by listening.
Van Gelder Plastylites and Van Gelder UAs have identical mastering but different manufacturing and most likely to some degree different metal including stampers.
Van Gelder Plastylites and non-RVG UAs have different mastering, different manufacturing and most likely to some degree different metal including stampers. But IMO the only way one could make an objective assessment about some sort of preference for a Plastylite or UA pressing of the same title would be to be sure that both pressings were made from fresh stampers and had no onset of groove wear.
Early on, I thought the key to good sound was as simple as getting record made from the original master tapes. I started buying any Blue Note pressing I came across. After similar experiences comparing Philips-remastered Mercury Living Presence recording with the original George Piros-cut masters, it began to dawn on me that there was a reason people were seeking out and paying a premium for early editions of these important recordings, and that reason was mastering.
I think Dean R. I have come to firmly believe that the truest representation of the original vision of the artists, engineer and producer is almost always the original master cut by Van Gelder and approved by Alfred Lion.
There is some debate about when and why Van Gelder cut new masters. As far as Van Gelder cutting more than one production lacquer at a Album), I have not ever run across and information about that obviously there may have been safeties, test pressings, etc. The audible impact of the breakdown of metal parts during the manufacturing process. Unfortunately, it seems that there is not a lot of hard information available to answer the second question. Some of us have speculated based on our limit knowledge of LP manufacturing, but the actual facts are few and far between.
I think the best hope is some first hand information from someone who has worked in the industry. In the meantime, here are some links that give a small amount of detailed information about the manufacturing process:. Perhaps if someone is feeling audacious, they can pose some of these questions to the aforementioned Lathe Trolls.
Thanks for all the One Night On Tulane - Blue States - The Soundings (Vinyl I found the Aardvark article a bit confusing…I preferred the Pennyroyal 3 article, that was very clear. It was interesting to see the significant difference in numbers that both articles came up with as the number of copies a plant could get from a single lacquer 36k with Pennyroyal 3 vs k with Aardvark…yikes!
In theory, if 36k was the more practical of the estimates and a plant madecopies from a single lacquer, would you want one of those copies made near the end of a run using the tenth stamper from the tenth mother?? Every one of these articles addresses the fact that stampers wear out, no? Pingback: Got Plastilyte?! No Man's Land.
When do these date from? Hi Rufus, interesting question. They originate from Van Gelder masters. I tend to date Liberty according to the precise colour characteristics of the label print.
This is inference, as I have no means of proof. Thanks for the fast and excellent response — I guess the italicized microgroove text threw me.
Cheers Rufus. It needed to be done. Are these genuine united artists labels? If so from which year? Cheers Sam. Definitely Vinyl Detective material, Sam. The differences you describe look to me down to who printed the labels — this is a specialist field of study.
If you have a picture of the variation fire it across. Apples and oranges and if they sounded the same, you know something is wrong. Or was the UK mastering engineer allowed freedom when cutting? That was quite common coming in both directions across the Atlantic.
So certainly the fidelity of the UK reissues, to the original master is in question. Which tape used, the care in mastering and pressing, digitization along with tape aging are probably responsible for the dismal sound of later Blue Note reissues. The gold standard for comparison is still against the master tape. Outside of the original Blue Notes, the 45 rpms come the closest sonically to the tape. Another item that is rarely mentioned is the condition of the disc.
Jazz lovers, bless their heart, compared to classical lovers who played their albums once and put it on a shelf, played their albums to death.
We will hear what we hear and no doubt will want to update the commentary, soon. On Blue Note recordings for instance Rudy was putting things onto the tape knowing how they would sound on record. Meaning that what you get on tape is not necessarily closer to what the producers were trying to create. Records would not be able to reproduce what would be on the tape, so the tape would be recorded in a way to make the records sound better.
This is significantly more important on Blue Note as the recording engineer was also the mastering engineer, who knew what compression he was likely to use on the cut as he was recording the music.
On the minus side tapes are far harder to look after well than records and they deteriorate even when they are not being played, on the plus side they are far less likely to get played than a record. From the mid s to the late 60s Blue Note never pressed anywhere but America. Alfred LIon decided against licensing out his product. So the only time the record was ever mastered was by Rudy Van Gelder from the pristine tape.
No second generation copy tapes unless something had gone badly wrong. Van Gelder must have been aware of that alternative solution. Perhaps they just cared less about business side. I think he sold finished albums and that was it. No one was allowed to remaster a Blue Note record in those days.
First of all, Blue Note was far from unique in their approach eg. Pretty much every small label was a mom and pop show back then. Two, reread your first paragraph because I found it very confusing and really a set of contradictions. Third, RVG and others were above all mastering their recordings with both the limitations of the cutting lathes back and THE playback equipment in mind. It was a rare person like George Piros of Mercury who could get a dynamic cut in those days from the cutting lathe.
And the de-noising is de-stroying the music and sound. Have you ever listened to the master tapes or even a copy to draw your conclusion or is this second hand info?
I would profer that the newer releases are closer to what was put down on original tape than the originals—even with tape aging effects. Myles my day job is listening to old master tape. The only people who say that there is no loss of fidelity down the years from master tapes, are those who are selling new releases mastered directly from them. Some are good, some are bloody awful. Please share who else was doing so in such vast numbers.
Of course you can fetish the original tapes, but the engineers job was to make records not tapes for audiophiles, and they knew what they often knew what would have to be done after the recording to make these viable records — within the views of the day. Tapes are of course a raw way of looking at the music recorded at a session, however I think a pristine original record would trump it most times.
Felix pointed out your post to me. I must say, however, that I firmly disagree with the statement I quoted above. What could a recording engineer possibly do differently when mixing on the fly in order to better prepare a recording to be released on vinyl?
Regarding compression, are you saying that Van Gelder may have compressed various individual signals going to tape a certain way based on how he knew he was going to apply compression to the entire mix in the mastering process?? This ties into why a lot of digital heads argue that digital remasters sound closer to the original tape, and if the tape was well cared for over the years, I would probably agree with that. But I would still prefer to listen to the recording on a vintage pressing.
I think my AP was just an import. Hey LJC could you email me at samrileymusic hotmail. Thanks mate hope you can help. Hi no sorry I mean the number 11, blue label white note.
Would there be any benefit compared to CD or should I wait til a king or toshiba shows up? Hey LJC. Or is it a waste of money? Roughly what would you say a hardbop album with this label might be worth?? Cheers sam. Be helpful to confirm which of the labels in the labelography above you had in mind if not that one.
And on the back cover, the DMM sign… Very confusing. Let you know. BTW, great blog and thank you for the music selections. Welcome Xavier — Interesting — shoot me a copy of the labels if you like — xpx min, bigger is better.
Oh, and what it sounds like, almost forgot!
Money - Pink Floyd - 97 Vinyl Collection (Box Set, LP), Sister Christian - Night Ranger - Midnight Madness (CD, Album), Good Evening - Peer Raben - Die Sehnsucht Der Veronika Voss - Original Soundtrack (Cassette, Album), I Am Back - Various - Merck Mix 3 (CD), On The Rain - Shudder To Think - Ten Spot (Vinyl, LP, Album), Ooh, Watcha Doin To Me - Sarah Vaughan - The Complete Columbia Recordings 1949-1953 (CD), Anxious & Awkward - Typesetter - S/T (Vinyl), 10:23 - Leichenbrand - Fabrikat Fleisch (CD, Album), Gloomy Sunday - Sarah Brightman - La Luna (CD)